(Some) Folks Will Complain

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 06/17/2020 at 11:39 • Filed to: None

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To be completely honest, I would never have thought about configuring IDE drives and given any thought to their designations as master and slave and how that might trigger someone. But now that I’ve had that pointed out to me, what grief does it cause me personally to adopt different usage out of consideration to others?

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winterlegacy, here 'till the end > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 11:44

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A lot of this seems extraordinarily reactionary.

For Sweden > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 11:45

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Can’t wait for a non-native English speaker to get fired for using the wrong word at a computer security conference.

Just Jeepin' > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 11:46

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I wrote about that 6 years ago on my mostly-dead blog:  http://macintux.blot.im/on-terminology-and-inclusiveness

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 11:51

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The master/slave terminology is a debate that has been around for at least 20 years and I suspect we’re not going to solve it now. I agree it is problematic, but I’m not sure what the solution is on drives. Repos that seems pretty straightforward. At least we have a few years before clones start  thinking the term “clone repo” is originist.  (<- That was a joke. It wasn’t a good one, but I made it.)

Now “whitelist” and “blacklist” I’d never questioned before just now and yeah... That is also problematic. Again, a term so ingrained in tech that I didn’t even thing it might have racial implications. Which SUCKS because I’m not sure what the alternatives are for that.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 11:58

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I guess, but words mean what words mean.

The words themselves are not going to go away. There are been slaves throughout history (and sadly even today in some places) - even when the last slave is freed, the meaning of the word will still connote the same thing. “The borrower is slave to the lender.”

As much as people might want to get away from “black is bad” in so many sayings, it’s nearly impossible to separate from the human tendency for light (in the sun) to be good, and dark (in the shadows) to be bad. This doesn’t prevent us from valuing those of different skin color equally.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

A black sheep isn’t bad because it’s black, it’s undesirable because the rest of the sheep are white and the desired product is white wool (that can easily be dyed).

The term “black list” has nothing to do with race:

The English dramatist Philip Massinger used the phrase “black list” in his 1639 tragedy The Unnatural Combat . [3]

After the Restoration of the English monarchy brought Charles II of England to the throne in 1660, a list of regicides named those to be punished for the execution of his father . [4] The state papers of Charles II say “If any innocent soul be found in this black list, let him not be offended at me, but consider whether some mistaken principle or interest may not have misled him to vote”. [5] In a 1676 history of the events leading up to the Restoration, James Heath (a supporter of Charles II) alleged that Parliament had passed an Act requiring the sale of estates, “And into this black list the Earl of Derby was now put, and other unfortunate Royalists”. [6]

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Just Jeepin' 06/17/2020 at 12:00

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You were ahead of your time.

facw > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 12:01

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I’ve always found the master/slave terminology a bit off putting and I think it’s good it’s going away (though realistically the most common use disappeared ~20 years ago when IDE drives went cable select, and IDE has been obsolete for 15 years in general). I guess there are still some systems that use them for DB replication or similar things, though not any I’ve used. The master and slave cylinders of the automotive world seem like a much more widespread use.

I’m a bit more hesitant on the calls to stop using terms like blacklist and whitelist or blackhat and whitehat, which have never had racial connotations (the association of black with evil and white with good, while sometimes used to disparage dark skinned people is older and deeply rooted in the fact humans are a diurnal species). Ultimately though, it doesn’t seem like a problem to use more descriptive terms to avoid any misunderstandings of prejudice.

The thing that seems weird to me is the idea that the word “master” should not be used in any context. It has much broader meaning than just that of a slaveholder, and is widely used in those other contexts. Having a “master” branch for example has zero  connotation of slavery, and it seems silly to change a term that shouldn’t be at all offensive.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 12:01

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Extending the theme, should the industry stop using “male” and “female” for electrical connectors and move to more neutral terminology? just asking

Tripper > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 12:02

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I’ve been in IT a long time and have always though it was kind of fucked up! Like Dayum hard drives...everything else is primary/secondary etc...

jminer > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 06/17/2020 at 12:08

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That was my same reaction - a lot of terms we use everyday seem pretty shitty when looked at. It’s tough to think about replacing it but I hope it’ll happen. This is kind of the perfect description of systemic racism though - so many things literally built into the system to prefer one over another some obvious and some not.

To be fair with hard drives there aren’t master/slave drives anymore. That tech has essentially been dead since SCSI and IDE left us over 10 years ago.

Nothing > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 12:20

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How do I deal with automotive hydraulic cylinders now?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 06/17/2020 at 12:42

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In-ey and Out-ey?

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 06/17/2020 at 12:47

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Plumbing is sexest AF. Nipples, couplings, male, female it’s a great profession is you are a teenage boy .

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Tripper 06/17/2020 at 12:48

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Primary/secondary is not too hard to understand either. O r Primary and subservient ?

CB > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/17/2020 at 12:53

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Draincock is also a good one.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > CB 06/17/2020 at 13:15

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I did that about 1 hr ago. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 06/17/2020 at 13:35

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TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 06/17/2020 at 13:45

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We’ve been saying it’s on the ACL (access control list) or it’s not on it. Also now that I think about it, I’ve been saying “merge back into the main repo” for a while now without realizing it. Master/Slave never really sat well with me for obvious reasons. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 06/17/2020 at 16:11

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Perhaps, but some of the replies on this post indicate that the reaction has been in place for 20 years. Still, using a different terminology for something that triggers someone else, what’s the big deal?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Just Jeepin' 06/17/2020 at 16:14

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Like I said in my post: I’d never have thought of it, but I’m happy to have it pointed out and just choose a different terminology. What I do not understand is why (W-H-I-T-E) people would need to get defensive and worked-up about it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 06/17/2020 at 16:15

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“merge back into the main repo”

Dang.

BigBlock440 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/17/2020 at 16:16

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Apparently it is, because primary/secondary would be a main drive and a backup or something controlling lesser functions, but wouldn’t need commands from the primary to carry out it’s tasks. With the master/slave, you have the master controlling all functions with the slave getting commands from the master, having no programming in it itself. I’m not in IT, so I’m not sure how the terms are exactly used or which one is more correct for the functions , just that they don’t intuitively mean the same thing. Fairly common in industrial equipment though to have “empty” drives controlling different axis based on inputs solely from a separate controller.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/17/2020 at 16:17

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Or picnic . As I’ve been saying: what’s the big deal about choosing a different word to help someone out? Why would some people need to get defensive and angry?

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 16:18

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I disagree that the words ‘master’ and ‘slave’ are racist by default.

You can be a master of a skill as one example.

And you can be a slave to money/making money because of financial obligations.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > facw 06/17/2020 at 16:20

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I think context is a large part of it. Those terms don’t need to be a big deal, but because of the way things have rolled in this country for the past 250 years, they are. So I’ll go along and use different words because being a d**k isn’t something I need in order to feel fulfilled.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/17/2020 at 16:21

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If you were of any age, of any stripe, and you claimed it was a great profession, I wouldn’t believe you.

BigBlock440 > Nothing 06/17/2020 at 16:21

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And what color do we make the ground wire now?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 06/17/2020 at 16:22

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Interesting thought. I don’t have an answer for you on that. I’ll have to give it some thought.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Tripper 06/17/2020 at 16:23

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Primary/secondary doesn’t strike me as problematic. I only mentioned the IDE because the example came readily to my mind.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Nothing 06/17/2020 at 16:23

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Yes, whenever someone says “wheel cylinder,” I am triggered.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 16:24

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I basically design really big plumbing for a living.

We use “butt straps” to connect plane ends of steel pipes together. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 06/17/2020 at 16:25

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Black, of course, because black is the absence of color. Which is an irony given the context of this discussion, no?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 16:29

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Right.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/picnic-origin/

I don’t personally have a problem with not using a given word, which was not rooted in racism, in order to not offend someone (see: niggardly - it’s probably okay if this one dies ), I’m just making the point that words mean what they mean, and if it’s a word with origins that aren’t racist, we don’t need to uniformly strike the word from existence or make it an offense if anyone uses it by accident . Let’s do our best to judge each other by the content of each other’s character.

I don’t expect cracker to disappear from Nabisco boxes any time soon...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 06/17/2020 at 16:33

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I wouldn’t disagree with your disagreement. But if in the context of American society the words have an upsetting connotation, what’s the big deal about using different words? Or more to the point, even if you have that view, why would you (or anyone; you is rhetorical) get put out and defensive about it?

My wife is her dogs’ master. I have mastered the art of bulls**t. (Not really; there are many much better than I am at that and some of them get elected POTUS.)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/17/2020 at 16:35

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Is your job title “plumber?” I think of P-traps when someone says plumber.

Nothing > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 16:43

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But, but...well, I currently don’t own anything with a clutch, so I don’t have to worry about it. I do have a new master cylinder ordered, though.

I’m now going to convert my rear drums just to make your statement moot, though.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/17/2020 at 16:44

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The tale I’d heard about picnic was not a lynching, but attending a slave auction. Either way, happy to be fact checked on that one.

Since we’re bandying semantics... Consider the words offend and affront . Nobody can offend me. Only I can choose to take offense to another’s affront. Still, whether or not I choose to take offense says naught about whether or not what the other said was an affront or whether they affronted me. In most cases, I see taking offense as a strategy used to manipulate someone. And if another were hoping to manipulate me by affronting me, and I choose not to be offended, then they are a bully and they ’ve failed.

Cracker : why should that term disappear when it refers to the privileged class? Because the privileged want to be aggrieved by its use? Rubbish.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Nothing 06/17/2020 at 16:53

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It’s good to be trolled once in a while. I never meant to cast any judgment nor aspersions. Only food for thought.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 16:54

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Does an affront have to be intentional? If someone talking about a slave cylinder has no clue the word could cause offense, are they at fault? I guess the point is really that we should all consider the way we speak and the words we choose to use , and consider how what we say might affect the people in earshot. Once again, I see it as a personal responsibility, not something where society needs to strike certain terms from the language.

My cracker crack at the end was just a throwaway line, but t here are surely plenty of poor whites that would take issue with being lumped in with the privileged class.

BigBlock440 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 17:12

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But it’s just one more instance of black = negative

Tripper > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 17:44

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Yeah and it’s honestly something I have only talked to myself about up until this point haha. But I have always thought about it, same with master and slave cylinders.

barnie > BigBlock440 06/17/2020 at 19:32

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ABYC sez DC ground wires should be yellow, AC grounds black (or brown) . Been this ways for >15 years. But DC hots are still red. Is that racist toward American Indians? No

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 06/17/2020 at 19:32

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On a car battery, it's literal.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Tripper 06/17/2020 at 19:33

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 My sense is that no one really expects us to be reactionary and make a lot of dramatic changes, at least the people that I talk to who are black, but rather, just to be thoughtful about it. To recognize these things and not pretend that they're not there.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/17/2020 at 20:00

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I almost closed my reply with something to the effect that I was not trying to be combative or confrontational. Apologies if my reply could be seen that way.

To your question, yes, it would seem:

I’d always assumed so, but I never confirmed it.

And I took cracker just the way you intended and showed the irritation I feel when the privileged class members want to play victim.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/17/2020 at 22:05

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No problem.

No playing the victim here. I’m privileged & have been very fortunate. I grew up with little , but we never went hungry (lower middle class), borrowed and worked to go to college, but I realize that I may have gotten opportunities along the way the past 25 years that may have not be given to others  so freely.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/17/2020 at 23:52

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No, I didn’t mean you playing victim at all. I meant when people do. I wouldn’t think of you playing that card. I never meant to try and put you on the defensive. Sorry if it came off that way. Not my intent at all.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 09:19

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I really didn’t take it that way - no worries.

Tone is so hard to convey in simple text...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/18/2020 at 11:36

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In the Land of Social Justice, and when I meet in Kumbayah groups at school, we always agree on a list of norms at the start and one of those, invariably, is Assume positive intent . I think that’s a great norm for life... Anyhow, I’d never snark at you, though I might sound grumpy sometimes.

Cheers!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 11:42

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Yes! Assume the best of other people (until proven decisively otherwise)!

And even then, consider that they might be having a shitty day.

Everyone’s going through their own stuff. Compassion and empathy go a long way.

Malforus > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 13:35

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I mean I have always believed that computers and other machines are the most moral of slaves we can have. They do work tirelessly and work until we replace them. The racism is in using humans to do the work or making humans slaves.
That said its not a big amount of effort to switch the lexicon to Controller-Worker
Or Manager-Employee

But you know lets all agree on it otherwise it will get very difficult to avoid lapsing back to the one we all know.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/18/2020 at 14:45

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I got really frustrated at Home Depot this morning and aired my frustration with a manager. I showed him the shambolic areas where it was impossible to shop. I told him I was sympathetic to the challenges he must be facing. Then I went to the local hardware store where they have the corral with all of the specialty fasteners in the little drawers and an M10 hex nut costs $0.89 and where I love to hang out and study the fasteners and get inspiration. They’ve got it counter service only and I have to deal with this older guy who doesn’t process information very well and who gets cross when you want to carefully consider which 89-cent nut you want to use. Lots of challenges we are all facing right now, but fortunately, mine are pretty first-world.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Malforus 06/18/2020 at 14:48

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Sure. It boils down to showing a modicum of consideration to some other humans.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 15:04

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In general, mine are, too.

But it got pretty real here this week... My wife’s brother just found he has a bunch of cysts in his lungs and one kidney, and they had layoffs at her office yesterday, and our city is setting up for an event that has a good likelihood of getting out of control this weekend (glad we’re leaving town).

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/18/2020 at 16:49

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What town is your town?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 16:52

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Tulsa - big Trump rally and surely massive protest.

At least he moved it back a bad to avoid Juneteenth...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/18/2020 at 16:56

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Yes, and in so doing, he made Juneteenth famous. WINNING!

I hope you have a good trip.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 16:58

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Thanks.

Malforus > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/18/2020 at 20:13

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Yup! There is legion things that people ask for you to do and you don’t have to agree its the right decision just acknowledge it doesn’t put you out too much.
We are part of a community, just cause I don’t have a problem isn’t a reason to keep doing it once asked kindly to stop.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Malforus 06/18/2020 at 22:35

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Yeah. And if you want to get offended and put out by it and play the victim, well, that kind of makes you a bit of a d**k, doesn't it?

Malforus > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/19/2020 at 10:26

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It does and now I can’t tell if you think I am trying to play victim or being a dick...

Yeah people who push back on this kind of thing are dicks, because they are trying to minimize or ignore how these things make people feel.  Again at the top I said I was fine with changing it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Malforus 06/19/2020 at 10:33

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I don’t think you are being either one. I was speaking rhetorically. Sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It sounds like you and I are on the same page.

Malforus > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/19/2020 at 11:10

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Sorry, I called out David Tracey and have been fending off stuff in another thread and was probably sensitive.
We are definitely on the same page, words have meanings and sometimes those meaning carry ugly baggage.

Happy Juneteenth to you and I hope you have a wonderful day.

BigBlock440 > barnie 06/19/2020 at 14:33

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I guess there’s the problem, the newest vehicle I’ve ever owned was a 2005, which still had a black ground.